About Guild raid "looting"

Hey, i know that i don't have any words by the guild raid and the looting.But all i wanted to say that today maded me the ssc raid pretty sad, it's not about the trinket and the DPK it's just.. when we did azgalor and it was 3times it was pure fun we have laugh and everyone got his loot what he wanted, so can't we just make like the old Demigod guild and do it the same way that we have done at azgalor? Or is it just that all want a pro guild and pro guild raids?..

peace
SyaN

I have the same meaning as Syan and really liked the Azgalor raid we did once.Everyone got all what they needed,it was fair.There was no blaming and crying about an item or anything.All were happy.

well many got tired from this story ... but cero and shade i guess got really tired about "passing spam" and not 70's lvls gathering cause they dont need anything ...
at suggestions i will suggest a system hopping to make this problem little more comfortable..

I dont know how the guild has "evolved" in the past 2 weeks since i was absent. I really liked the way we were doin the bt raid before i left for that amount of time: need before greed and if someone really needs somethin then others, who do not (need it), pass it, and the ones who need too just roll using the in-game mechanics. Todays point-loot-type seemed interesting, but had -in my opinion always- several flaws that i pointed out at the moment. If we get ppl to work on it in order to make it better and more fair, then i wouldnt be surprised if the guild would like it and agree to use it regularly in the future. However, for now, it is pointless to used this system and i think we should stick to the one i mentioned in the beggining of this post (the one that was used 2 weeks ago), until something better comes along.

I`m fully agree with Syan, and others.
I`m my opinion DKP system is better for - official servers, but not for emuls.

am, agree with syan....
I have many words to say about that but i try to be short.

So, DKP system is good, but .... emules, and specially Wowlegion sever, which is 3 x , from boss drops 3 pages items!!! How you think that its gonna be happend? When we kill archi? or some other big boss? The corpse will be disapears before 2nd item gained.
Im my last server (1x) we gained about 3-4 items from boss- there can be master loot- Here NO!!!!

I know that Shade has read a lot about that, and i appreciate it!
But nobody was happy yesterday.
Or we have to do it 1 more time? but i dont think that many pplz will join to raid if they know that its gonna be master loot.

So, 2nd thing that i wanna say is:
Why Kenshey gots all greedy items???? we have many enchanters here- like Grishka, Syan etc.
I dont have nothing vs Kenshey, but it was not fair, you know!
Couse yesterday he tryed to sell "Mongoose" to guild members? oMG!!! Grishka makes mongoose for free!!!
Its just not fair, im sry....my opininion is not like other officers, but its just not fair for others!!!

What you wanna say if i make you sockets for gold???? but i dont do it, you see
and 3th:
for the trincket-
Roky's roll was for 100, for 1 time. And then you made onther roll, couse you wanted Ceronnis have the trincket!
I know that he didnt roll fisrt time, but why? did you ever ask why? i think he just didnt have time for this... so master loot here is not good idea! so fo many items, we have to be hurry...
Yesterday i wanted 1 item, boots from Hydross and i couldnt say"i want" couse i just had to see if mine r better or not! And when i saw that mine boots r worst, its was late! Ken got boots!

SO, again- master loot is not for here, 3 x server like this!
If you dont agree with my opinion, ok! and i will understand you if you dont wanna be officer now..

But im rly not in mood to go guild raids....from now
I wanna old guild raids we made...

let me try to get my view to this situation, with holding on to your post valary:

Valary wrote:

So, DKP system is good, but .... emules, and specially Wowlegion sever, which is 3 x , from boss drops 3 pages items!!! How you think that its gonna be happend? When we kill archi? or some other big boss? The corpse will be disapears before 2nd item gained.
Im my last server (1x) we gained about 3-4 items from boss- there can be master loot- Here NO!!!!

we did ML @ saph who drops like 10 or more items... the 2nd run we did it without any disappeareance of corpse. it has to go fast, but its possible.

Valary wrote:

I know that Shade has read a lot about that, and i appreciate it!
But nobody was happy yesterday.
Or we have to do it 1 more time? but i dont think that many pplz will join to raid if they know that its gonna be master loot.

you shouldnt count the mood of ppl right after that raid that happened yesterday. it was a test run, to see how its possible, what is important and so on. raid participient almost didnt even know about dkp before. you cant explain the system in no time to an unknown dkp member...

Valary wrote:

So, 2nd thing that i wanna say is:
Why Kenshey gots all greedy items???? we have many enchanters here- like Grishka, Syan etc.
I dont have nothing vs Kenshey, but it was not fair, you know!
Couse yesterday he tryed to sell "Mongoose" to guild members? oMG!!! Grishka makes mongoose for free!!!
Its just not fair, im sry....my opininion is not like other officers, but its just not fair for others!!!

kenshey said more then 1time that he will collect the disenchants and put it into guild bank without private need. i think hes trustable.
it wasnt for his personal use. he just got elected as guild enchanter (as i could see...)

Valary wrote:

and 3th:
for the trincket-
Roky's roll was for 100, for 1 time. And then you made onther roll, couse you wanted Ceronnis have the trincket!
I know that he didnt roll fisrt time, but why? did you ever ask why? i think he just didnt have time for this... so master loot here is not good idea! so fo many items, we have to be hurry...
Yesterday i wanted 1 item, boots from Hydross and i couldnt say"i want" couse i just had to see if mine r better or not! And when i saw that mine boots r worst, its was late! Ken got boots!

well... there were mistakes. like in each new system (lets call it alpha or beta run, just like a version of an application).
shade got overwhelmed by requests and whispers. my own need request to that trinket did not mentioned too, but i still say: dont give it up so fast
with stable rules during the raid, espeacilly during item give away phase this wont happen again. and shade, i forgive you your failure.

Valary wrote:

If you dont agree with my opinion, ok! and i will understand you if you dont wanna be officer now..

i think each opinion is important. and i dont understand why an officer shouldnt have the right to tell his/her mind or opinion, even if its negative to something.
in the end, let me give you some advantages which any participient will get when he or she raids with dkp:

dkp is about earning points, buy stuff for it and invest these points in that way.

earning:
-you earn points for being active in raids, doesnt matter if you raid whole week or only 1 day per week. you will receive points for your activities and will keep it like you store it on the bank
- if you dont need stuff - store your points. 1 day the item you really uber need will drop, and you will be able to get it
- each boss kill will let your dkpoints count higher. the more u have, the easier you get the item you need

buy stuff:
- buying is simple: when the item you need is ready for call by the lootleader-announce, just whisper the leader ur count. you have more then the other needers, you just get the item

in the end, the players that are active and keep the guild living will be rewarded with items, and even non active member will have chances to get items when they just store points.

sorry for the bunch of text. maybe 1 or 2 find the time to read it. im always open for any questions about it.
and i look forward to rerun with dkp system soon, cause im not the guy who guildraids 24/7 a week as a freaking full tank specced player, to get me rolled stuff away i badly need by a player that runs 1 raid a month (just an example case...)

i saw dkp system @ retails and played with it more then 1 year. when we find a way to collect the points after each boss easily and let the guildmembers get an overview shortly, i definetly say: we need dkp system when we wanto schedule and run raids over the week.


peace,
chantally aka jakob

Quote :

in the end, the players that are active and keep the guild living will be rewarded with items, and even non active member will have chances to get items when they just store points.

I will not comment to anything that valary and chantally said appart from the above quote. I will use it to point out some of the flaws ive found on the system so far, which where the main reason why i did not agree with using it in the first place.

The dkp system is used to reward active guild members from what has been said by chantally, and shade, as well as other members of the guild keep supporting the idea that this system is more fair than the NBG one. However, the DKP system clearly favours people who have lots of free time, over people who have somewhat more serious and demanding lives, and of course responsibilities that other members will not have untill a more mature age (of course some ppl may never have any responsibilities, because of their economic state or because they're not able to do anything with their lives, but that is a different story). I will not mention any other guild member that are on a similar situation as me, thus i will only give me as an example. I am a big fan of this game and whenever i get some free time in my house, i just go and play is. Appart from entertainment, i also see this game as a mean to relax after a long and tiring day. I play as much as my timetable allows me and -believe me- if i had any more time, i would play a lot more.

The second major flaw i have detected so far in the DKP system is the fact that it also favours some professions over others. Once again i will use myself as an example, without mentioning any fellow guild members who may wish not to be referenced. My main (for the time) character, Tefris, is an enchanter, and as every enchanter, he needs items for disenchanting in order to receive materials. Paying extra points in order to use his profession (that has already given numerous free enchants to the guild) is simply absurd.

Finally the use of master loot obviously giver the raid leader enormous responsibility, and with the sleightest mistake (as some have already experienced) chaos will be brought to the raid, leading to a complete waist of time. I am sure (and i know) that the guild leader and the guild officers are trying hard to make the guild a better place, but whenever such mistakes take place, while using the DKP system, the guild "heads" will become sleightly more infamous in the eyes of new members. This will of course lead to the creation of a somewhat heavy atmosphere and it will make our guild (wich i care about, whith the first members knowing exactly why i do care so much) unpopular.

Those are my ideas so far. Of course i have some possible solutions to the problems mentioned above, but i will discuss them only when people in charge have recognised these flaws and wish to work on them with me. Thank you for your time!

about his first point tht pp, with more free time on their hands will be favoured........
Personally i kinda support the overall fairness of the system but...the flaw mentioned by tefris and me is apparent
I'm currently having my Sem break from Swinburne University....so i gt pretty much quite a lotta time on my hand right now ...but imagine when my break finishes and my 2nd sem starts.....i wont have much time to play WoW anymore......i reckon many more guildies out there face the same problem ..whether is doin degrees like me or work or even with relationships and family.....lets face it our own personal life gotta come first but we will try and appreciate the time we have for WoW....

Let me make this clear and apparent/.....
i give u a scenario....
1. A player who's kinda free goes on GRs all the time and pretty much enjoys a lotta dkp and items but imagine a person who has his neck up in work and would like to free some stress on that by playin wow....and what does he see?......no points...no items...he cant even relieve stress as he is stuck up in work and now faces a fact that he aint gonna get what he needs even with GRs cause of this flaw in the system...won't more stress build up for him?...and more pressure is put on him to both suceed both in WoW and reality at the same time.....does the word 'suicide ' ring a bell..btw this has happened before in real life ...because of stress from both games and reality...so i'm praying that we can work out a perfectly working system....btw i'm not objecting it...i'm just pointing out some facts

dtotem: u told us about ur timemanagements, and that reallife is going #first, but im sorry to say: thats not the point.
all of you have personal reasons why you dont like dkp from now, and thats ok... its just normal that people who never played with that for a period of time think,
its not worth raiding with dkp.

tefris: u told us some really bad scenarios.
to make it short: yes the lootleader has a responsability, but the raidmember has too (cause he has to tell the lootleader the right dkp values). in the end, both sides will be forced to dont freak around during loot phase.
i guess the profession question isnt really a discussable reason, why we should give up dkp.
we know that it isnt going without a stable rule system, which is easy to understand and practicable in each raid. if more demigods would register @ forum and open their mind for this thing, it shouldnt be a problem to run each raid with points...

did you ever thought about how big your chances are, to roll in a nbg system an item (trinket f.e.) that 40% of a raid grp would need? ur chances would be bad. u would have to run the instance again and again and again, so maybe someday u will get it. all a matter of roll luck...
the more time you runned, the more chances u would get.
and now compare that with dkp... the more runs you make, the more dkp you get.
its just more transparent and simple to us all. but now you know your chances before, run raids where you dont need an items cause u earn dkp and assist the guild at one time - whether you are a 24/7 raider or a 1 raid a week/month raider. and one day you get the item, cause you have more dkp than the last needer, more than the alt-chars who would roll on it too... and so on ...

you just have to get distanced from ur personal view to get the guild perspective. in my mind the guild has to find a way to get each individuum fairly dealed (as much as possible in the end result).

in about fairness, nbg can NEVER win against dkp.
and if you find 1 or 2 players who are maybe sad about it, cause they log in 1 time a week, you will find many many participients of the raid who are fine with it.
demigod is a pro and active guild, and only active members get a guild going forward... you log in once a week? once a month? why you should get an item another member tried to roll 5 times, of 5 guild raids he has been so far, and you where in zero raids, and you luck it? thats simply unfair. any personal reasons why you where there or not just doesnt matter...

we try to go fast forward, we have a bunch of active players who are willing to raid regular.
so we just need rules and lines that will prevent us from drifting into a chaotic, huge guild where any ninja is welcome and active players need to run instances like random grps, cause all raidmember just need everything and roll with need like they can.

whats the difference between a guildraid and a random raid, except the raidmember? i did and leaded so many random raids, i cant count them. i got 75% of my 3 gear sets (heal, dps, tank) from those raids. so i demand using a system that works, so guildraids doesnt feel like random raids...

we shoudlnt even have to make dkp system so complicate.
we could make it so easy, that also my 2 dogs and my 1 cat could understand it, like:

each raid u complete to the end - 2 points
each item you need - set your point -> buy item -> lose ur point -> gather new ones -> ...

you see? it could be so easy. if you just dont block everything -.-

I understand your purpose chantally, dont get me wrong. However i stick to my opinion about the DPK system favouring ppl with free time. Appart from that i believe you are wrong about the NBG system. The chances of someone getting an item go up in total as long as he participates in more raids. And stats support this theory: one person will have -lets say- a 10% chance to get an item from a raid. This means that he has the chance to get it in one raid out of ten. Theoretically then, after 10 raids, he will have it. Obviously this doesnt always happen since luck has an important role in stats in the first place. Nevertheless though, all the other flaws of the DPK that have been mentioned so far are excluded. That makes in total one flaw for NBG (which is luck at its lesser form) vs the at least 3 flaws of the DPK (and im saying "at least" because i havent spent enough time yet to outline any others). As i said in my previous post, i already have some solutions in my mind about restraining some of these flaws. It is up to you (and by you i mean the "heads" of the guild, since you have the biggest influence) whether you want to recognise this fact and try to make it better, or just keep supporting something that is unstable and that most guild member will not accept. By all means, im not having a go on you chantally so please do not feel annoyed or anything similar - i am speaking my mind about things as i (and other ppl) see it. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to talk about these things mate =)

PS: Dtotem.... suicide???? xD im gettin worried about u man! loooool Anyway thanks for your support dude! =)

Tefris please ok research more about DKP ok? i dont want to fight over this if you guys dont like it then we dont use it but if you are trying to prove that NBG is better than DKP then you are wasting your time. You say people that dont raid a lot wouldn't get any loot actually think about this. Let's say you only raid once a week , but we have 4 guild raids a week so lets say I have 4 times the amount of DKP that you have but at the same time I've been to more raids than you so that means I've seen more loot which means I've probably spent DKP point buying items. So if I bought a lot of items then i probably have less DKP than you even though you raided only once. Also I would like to point this out most of you that are complaining about DKP are the ones that haven't been on guild raids before this and weren't there for all the drama we had with the pass or i leave , i need it more blah blah blah. Also you know what? I'm not saying you are a noob or anything but most people that complain have bad gear, tell you why because if you need everything like if all your items are green then you most likely get a lot of epics a day . Example, when I turned 70 I probably got 8-10 epics on the first two runs of BT why? because i need everything, weapons, armor, rings, patterns,etc. so if i roll need for more stuff then i'm more likely to get more items. But now I only need 7 items total and I wouldn't need anything else from raid so what? i should still go to guild raids right? and help out... pass on everything get my fellow guild mates geared up and then when we finally do bosses that i need to kill to get stuff someone else lets say that just joined guild that day comes and beats me in a roll that I've technically been working on for 2-3 weeks I dont think thats fair so under your system tefris what you are saying is that I shouldn't help guild cause I'm wasting my time because when the time comes even though I've helped a lot of people i would still get nothing. That sounds really fair to me. So i don't know i agree with all of you guys w/e you don't have time you play the game just for fun and whatever. Well if thats the case and you just want to come on one day and raid, then you technically dont need a guild that... All i'm saying is that members that help out the most should have priority over someone that doesn't help at all. If there is no system then raiding with the guild is the same as raiding with random people.
DKP:
People that raid more will get their items sooner (which is different from saying i raid more i have more chances, chance is not certain even if you have a 90% chance of getting something there still exist a 10% chance of not getting it compared to having point and paying for something)
People dont need stuff that they dont really need (I've heard people complain in raids about me rolling on trinkets, well technically if I dont have it then I need because under the NBG rules thats not ninja)
You are guaranteed to get loot sooner (guaranteed!! can you guarantee me something with NBG? i dont think so)
No ninja whatsoever, by accident, warlocks , mages rolling on healing gear, etc.(like yesterday in BT raid a greenie druid that just joined guild ninja'ed tanking ring, I think that's not fair at all why should someone that just joined guild get an item before me? that I've been helping the guild for so long?)
In conclusion all DKP does is reward whoever helps the most.

Ok now you make a list like me and tell me why NBG is sooo good and fair... i want to see that

well its maybe already known that i share shades sight, so...

# shademinion

you are totally speaking out of my soul

Well even if the majority is for NBG i have to say that i'm for the DKP too, you guys just didn't take the time to test it well
Read about in on the net you'll see that many pro use it but as Shade said it's kind of unfair that a new participant get the item of somebody who is helping the guild since it's opened

Guys its not that i have not read about the system online. Its pure logic that goes against it. Your opinion of "fair" is subjective, whereas my "fairness" is entirely based on stats and mathematical logic. If you cannot understand the logic behind maths then im sorry i cannot help you. The DKP system used by some the top guilds on retail are modified from what u presented last time and from what you are describing in the forums. I never said that i disagreed with the DKP system in the way it is used by these guilds. I disagree with the version you are presenting. You are completely (or at least partially) missing the point...

Dude im using the same DKP that the guild Retribution uses know if you dont know who Retribution is go check it out (http://www.retributionguild.net/)Read a lil about them. I base most of my leadership and opinions on this guild this guild has been the most succesful on WoW since it came (even before that , since WoW Beta Version when lvl cap was 10) They have had the 1st and 2nd places for downing bosses since MC (molten core came out) and the cap lvl was 60. I have played in the same server they have and even though they were alliance and i was horde they were respected by everyone. They kept the arthas server in retail (one of the oldest server) alive by introducing PVP night! (a 5vs5 arranged team from the top guilds in the server) They were so successful and powerful that everyone would just come and watch this battles and would not interfere with it like horde and alliance together no fighting just enjoying watching the best players fight... Well anyway the DKP system I introduced is based on theirs, everything I try to do is best on their success. If you think I'm lying go check their website check their history.

Hello there.I'm back again. I'm happy that u got to the decision to use DKP.I'm for it to now.And hope all will be fine.

Wisky wrote:

Hello there.I'm back again. I'm happy that u got to the decision to use DKP.I'm for it to now.And hope all will be fine.

Heya Roky!!!
Welcome back dude

The dkp system is clear now!! And we all happy and have some points now. For example i have 55!

I hope soon make some raids....

idk know how many points i have oO
i think 0

Blackwing wrote:

idk know how many points i have oO
i think 0

check in current DKP