OK guys i seriously HAD IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i'm posting this topic based on 2 issues which ...so far i stayed quiet about.....but not anymore.....most ppl share my opinions but dont wish to voice it out coz their either too unrecognised in guild or too scared u'll shun them for posting these statements so on behalf of all of them and myself...i would like to bring forth these 2 serious issues....ps: ( this aint personal so don't get too offended)


no 1 :
SERIOUS unfairness in current dkp system as eg :





as u cn see...the lifetime dkp of most ppl are highly fckin imbalanced....pls explain to me why are all the lifetime dkp all so highly different from each other and the 2nd point why isit that some of the participation is soimbalanced..sometimes 5 ...then 10...then 15...then 20........ifi wasntmistaken it was for fairness......and the way i see it its the farthest from it i've seen....u guys taking sides now?....lemme compare to the previous system......+10dkp to all whocome and stay till END of raid.....no more no less.......and if i had a screenie of the previous table i would post it....coz it shows uniformatiy ...most ppl have the same lifetime dkp or some slightly higher but u can see the uniformaty there...that means all have received their fair share of dkp at a constant rate...and nt some insane unbalanced rates given by those in charge.......the way i honestly see it...ur taking sides now.....and a 2nd part in this half of the argument...i have been receiving endless complaints of further injustice.......1 in particualr involving some guildies...sry but i gotta say it...bbagos......i have recieved multiple complaints of u complaining and throwing massive tantrums that ppl like lanfair recieve dkp and u dont....i'll let her elaborate mre on that part.....then she also said since then u been receiving BONUS dkp for tanking....slightly higher then the others....and threatened to leave guild and flame if u didnt...she said she even has screenies to prove them...so i'll leave that part to her.. ....and i can also sense a certain unfairnessas to who the dkp being given out to...i can FEEL that chickenrib and gurren are like getting slightlyhigher dkp then the rest of ya all....i cn feel the thing there and it may be apparent by the pics.....so u guys siding with each other 2 gain ur items nw......and also.....dkp systemsupposed tobe for 1 raid a day......but nw its like multiple times a day we allcnat keep track and that the fact that'shw u guys get the bonuses.....raids that dont involve some others.....like 2dkpraids a day but different ppl in each so bonuses to u guys for organising 2....the system was made fair for ONCE A DAY ONLY.........so ensuring fairness that ALL get wat they deserve nt the organisers getting bonuses coz they make the raids for 2wice...and btw if u guys say u duallog and only 1 char gets the dkp...then it shud be only char which allowed touse it......coz to be truly fairlike the previous system ...once dkpforthat char it stays there ...notransfering...making sure...that it stays fair....but nw...hw would we knw where all these points fly too...1 min here 1 min there....and when u think u are bound toget an tiem coz u gt the highest...some dude comes and says hay i wanna transfer 500 dkp from this guy to this guy then ...bye bye ...ur hopes 4 that item......so tell me hw fair isit?........ok here i make my final stand......

nw u guys cna hear partly why me and some others have stop assocsiating ourselves with graids anymore coz of the injustice we see....... pls dont take this lightly ......this issue has been personally bugging me for weeks and i cant keep it in anymore ...daily wisps by friends bout this and the injustice behind the current system compared to the previous ones i see

i litterally salute lee and luis.....u 2 have made the perfect raiding system......but nw all i see is barely even a shadow of its former self....
.signing off...yours truly...Dtotem

+1 i take D side all i can say im not a major power anymore in demigod but i dont like unfairness ...
and btw 1 think right we shoude have a graid once a day no mather who leads it but 25/25
not like mostly 10 pp or 15
max 20

what i mean is long ago ppl were eager for the graid to start and stayed even in night for it cuz it was not only loot but pure fun
now its a pain i cant atend to raids i come from honor my chance everytime i come for any gear is 0 % and that is most for all ppl who have a RL to worry about

yes the specific dkp rules are still being worked out, as lee stated in his post in the dkp section of the forum. it is a bit strange that different amounts of dkp are being awarded for participating. the details of the system are not final yet.

i think there are 2 reasons why theres a big difference in lifetime dkp amount different members.
first of all, not everyone in the guild take part in all the dkp raids. for example, if player A and B participate on monday, player A and c participate on tuesday, and player A and D participate on wednsday, then obviously players B, C, and D have lower lifetime dkp compared to player A. i think its quite clear which people in the guild have been "player A."
the second reason is that pyrotess sometimes leads "off hour" dkp raids, often with small groups of guild members. she does these to try and help out guild members in other time zones who might find 1pm server time very inconvenient for them. the instance is decided based on what people online at the time need, chosen from the ones with dkp loot tables set up. if its a 100% graid led by someone with dkp authority, i dont see whats not fair about the participants spending their dkp on loots and getting awarded dkp for their effort in killing bosses. if you think these "off hour" dkp raids are unfair only because you cant go to them and you end up getting surpassed in dkp, then try to think about the other guild members whose schedules dont allow them to take part in the 1pm server time "official" dkp raids, or the people who needs items from other instances that also have dkp loot table but "official" dkp raids rarely visit.

as far as i know, gurren currently stopped leading the dkp graids at 1pm server time due to his exams.

and for your information, if you, and whoever else you speak for, are trying to imply that gurren has been secretly giving extra dkp to me and himself, all i can say is that i am deeply shocked by your lack of trust. its true that gurren is new to this and he has made mistakes, especially due to all the alts in the guild and the dkp transfers in between alts. however, whenever he becomes aware of a mistake, he talks to the person and gets things sorted out as soon as possible.

if im not recognized as trust worthy by a fellow officer, and possibly other members, then i request that i get demoted back to veteran for the time being. i will avoid involvement with dkp raids until this issue is resolved.

well looks like sty beat me to it but ill say wat i got


OK, here’s
wat I understood from ur paragraph, u feel that im being unfair in terms DKP
for the following reasons:


a)
im
giving myself + chicken bonus DKPs


b)
The
DKP is different for each boss/participation


c)
no
transfers should be allowed


d)
guild
is not everyday


here’s my
explanation:


a)HOW?
and WHY? if I transfer 100 dkp from chicken to kalboy in game, the webdkp site
counts it as 200, that’s y chicken has so high lifetime. If there was bonus, every1 in the raid got it.


b)
b)the
DKP I give for boss/participation is based on how smooth/fast the boss went, if
u read my rules, bonus is given if the boss is downed within a time period.
Participation bonus is based on attendance and length of the raid, for example,
I believe people should get more participation bonus for that 6hrs+ swp raid,
which I gave 50 for part


c)
c)IF
no transfers were allowed, every1’s going to raid on characters that needs
stuff, aka greenies and not geared people. If we can get the best characters in
guild to raid together, that means faster and more efficient raiding instead of
20 alts with shtty gear trying to raid swp.


d)
d) first,
I try to make guild raid every day, and wat the hell can u do when only 18
people is online?? second, I have a life
third, as far as I know, I’ve only made one guild raid per day when I do, if
there was 2 DKP raids today, it was pyro trying to give u off hour people some
opportunities and u guys should THANK her







NOW, MY
turn to complain







a)
if
u don’t like my system, why don’t YOU lead some raids, why don’t YOU do
something for the guild, you being an old member doesn’t make you have officer rights.
so far, all I’ve seen you doing is , “ OMG I don’t like this guy, OMG I don’t
like that guy” . Isnt one of the criteria for being an officer “lead raids”???


b)
I
AM NOT SHADE NOR LEE, they have their own systems, I have mine, and if it
didn’t work, I change the system to try to make it fair, and NOSHT, NO ONE’S
FCKING PERFECT, IM SORY IF I CANT MAKE SOME PEOPLE HAPPY.


c)
your
calling me selfish? u cant make it to the guild raiding time doesn’t give u the
right to flame. Im sory if I live a different part of the world and cant suck
up to u whenever I want.





PS: you
think ur the only who’s pissed??


why do u
think shade left


why do u
think torba left


why do u
think cryisa left


and list
goes on….


I come to
the guild and devote my whole fcking time to the guild and guild raids,
everytime I come online, first time I do is press O and see if there’s enough
people for raid. THIS, THIS IS WHAT YOU
GUYS THINK OF ME? and all you guys care is about ur items, Ive killed illi I
don’t know how many times, but the only time people appreciate it when glaives
drop. I come back and get DKP for u guys, get guild raids together again, try
to recruit people, and u guys just ignore everything I do, I feel sorry for
myself.


or maybe I
should just give up all guild raids and
shit, and go complain that some1’s not doing their job.


I think its
time for me to go. I’ve never srsly considered joining CV until now, im sure me
+chicken +mlt can get into CV no problem.




PS: for rag, read wat D said, one of the problem
is people taking sides, and wat r YOU doing? taking D’s side? why don’t we all
pick a side, and split the guild once again ?? you’d like that? maybe all the
pro people leaving guild again like with shade? 25/25 raids is impossible now,
people got lives and its like 15 people on at PRIME

I'm not even gonna try to comment.

You wanna check if anything is unfair feel free to pull up all my raids and DKP that was awarded. Then consider the situation and how I was pulling teeth just to get people to join. Oh, and also note. People complaining were also online during most of my off hour raids.

Funny. My comp just blue screened before I was bout to lead a SWP DKP during prime hours and is now unrecoverable. I thought I should go on forum and post it may be a few hours before I reimage my PC and reinstall WOW. Now I'm just gonna hold off. I consider myself a nice girl. But seriously, don't screw with me and my attempts to do anything nice for the guild.

That's my final comment.

I have to agree with gurren on this one a lot of people dont appreciate what some people do for the guild until those are gone(me, lee, torba, etc) then once those people are gone you complain about us being gone and everything being better.
It's really hard taking care of DKP, leading raids, having people whisper you, etc.
I know other people do stuff for the guild too: recruit, deposit stuff in bank, enchant, etc,etc. But truly the heaviest, hardest job of all is leading and doing DKP (if its being done ) or before DKP master looting. And specially in cases where the leader is a healer or a tank TANKING, LEADING , and ML or DKP are together the hardest thing to do during a raid.
What really pisses me off about all this is the distrust on officers. Think about this: officers are the ones you can trust the most in the guild because they have either been in the guild for a long time (and i disagree with this part) , or have done a lot for the guild.
I say I disagree with people being promoted to officers because they have been with the guild for a long time that alone is NOT enough to be an officer. Someone could be in the guild forever but has given nothing to it. Being an officer is not just: "oh i got the officer status I'm better than you" you have to prove it and do extraordinary things for the guild. (leading raids, arrange the bank tabs, recruit, etc)
Anyway I hope before everyone pisses off people that help the guild and make them leave you realize what they do for the guild and understand how much effort is put into it.

sry dotem ... but IM TOTALY AGREE with gurren this time ...
like u can see on the table that eich dkp given for a reson !!!
dont blam him for doing a GREAT job ..

and we r not fult that ur time ZONE doesnt let u come to 1pm graids ... WHAY U dony make some dkp graids and thene
u will see how much its hard to be fair !!!


and btw i still not get what the problem with my dkp ..
ii did almost every dkp raid cuz i wanted the dkp even if its late ... so i think i derserv it ..

exept tonight im sry i choudlent stay i have exam tomorow and i realy need some sleep

I'm not even having a say in this argument. All I can say is that D did a bold move by leaving the guild and stating what he had to say. Leaving was unnecessary and could have been easily resolved with some compromised solutions and initiatives that can be taken. Other precautions could have been taken into full exempt for various reasons. I really can't say much because I have so much I'm doing that I don't even consider myself as part of this argument, let alone, guild at this point because of how things are going for me.

Well reading a bit more indeep not onlt in D's post i see realy dkp was not without a reason and im not realy gonna take a side i know D very well
gurren whe knew eachother from a long time dunno probly DKP is realy hard cuz long time ago he sounded as a happyer person

PS-Gurren if a member can be learned about DKP i wanna learn it im much of the time online soo wisp me when you have time to talk about me and dkp

Hmmmmm again DKP problems, here are my opinions about that:
First of all Gurren is doing a great job on leads and even on recrutment in the guild, the DKP system is still not perfectly done, so be patient guys and don't offend ppl who are losing so much time to keep ya satisfied, instead of a complain you should help or tell your point of view and talk about it unstead of creating fighting clans inside the guild, i personally like the work of Gurren inside the guild, and btw leaving the guild isn't a solution to change how it is, if you really love your guild you should found a solution unstead of leaving like that, ppl that can't fight a problem for me are losers, and if losers wanna go i have no reason to keep em, as you see the guild app is filled everyday with new members, btw i'm taking the side of nobody but actually the officers i have are doing great and they don't abuse in anyway the other members of Demigod, so unstead of fights and complains, help for the improvement is necessary.
So don't blame anybody specially when they are doing their best (the officers)
They are always online to keep the guild activ while others are coming only for the guild raids hour saying: hi any graid?
so who is selfish now?
Keep in mind that we are not blind and that screwing with the officers that way will result a kick

umm though i personally have quite a bit of dkp, I think the system is rather.... uninviting to those who don't come to graids very often.


I believe that if every1 came to graids on a daily basis, we'd all gain a similar amount of dkp, hence we would all get a chance to get items (if 1 person gets an item, he will be lower dkp than everyone else).


The problem as I see it at the moment, is that a lot of people haven't been showing up. This brings us to the wide range of dkp numbers we are seeing.


This implies a further problem, that people who have lower dkp just don't WANT to come to dkp raids anymore, because they know they will get nothing. I remember a dkp graid like 2 weeks back @ SWP where we finished @ muru i think. I managed to dkp like every mage item, but vanwielder who came didn't really get anything till twins....... so i ended up not wisp'ing gurren NEED for the amulet of unfettered magics.... because people should get stuff for coming, as i see it. You don't go to graid just to get yourself items, but to help other people in your guild as well .


If every1 came every time, or most times, it would make the system much better.



As it stands now, I don't see (from a newer guild member, or an inactive guild member's perspective), any reason to go to a dkp graid if you are 500 points below the next guy who rolls on the same items. A different system is definitely needed. (and I say this as the guild's 6th highest dkp @ 420, so don't say that its because i can't get any items.)


But, I definitely don't think gurren is cheating at the system. It's just that the system only works if people come on a regular basis. I feel the same for pyro, she tries to lead raids every now and then to help people get their items (as of yet I have not seen her roll on any item), but its simply annoying when all she gets in return is this type of speculation from the rest of the guild. If i were in her shoes, I'd probably never lead a raid again. After all, it doesn't seem like it has any positive consequences (but she's too nice to stop leading ).

So by this I am saying we shouldn't take people's initiative to lead raids for granted.... thank them for leading because it's not an easy job from what I can tell...


But what do I know... I've only been in this guild for 2-3 weeks. (i don't believe ive missed a single one of gurren's graids though ^_^, maybe i spam him too much lol)

OK since my name has been mentioned there are a couple of points I’d like to make

As I see it there are two issues that Dtotem wanted me to elaborate on: DKP and conduct befitting members of a Pro Guild

1. DKP issues
It should be no surprise to officers that I don’t like the DKP system as I have voiced my opinion of it to them. I have also said I will support the officers in their implementation of it for the good of the guild. When I attend a DKP raid I do so to help guild members and expect no points nor gear in return although it is appreciated . The DKP graids I have attended take place in instances my alts don’t need so just to make that clear I do it for the guild.
I’m not greatly familiar with this system but it appears that you award points where officers think they are deserved the most. This is a subjective measure.

A subjective measure is heavily influenced both consciously and subconsciously by the person’s preconceived ideas and emotional disposition. As a scientist and we never use subjective measures and one reason for that is it opens you up for criticism of being bias and it is a bias measure no doubt about it. There is no a court in the land that would say a subjective measure is a true and fair assessment for judging anything. So it doesn’t surprise me that there are ppl who see this system as being unfair. Perhaps it’s time to take another look at it and how it is implemented to keep ppl happy.
For example on one DKP graid I (Lanfair) was awarded bonus points for doing the most healing. This is an area where ppls views may vary but I can understand how ppl can think it’s not fair when you are rewarding one class above another for simply doing what that class was designed to do.

Now I’m sure the officer have good reason for doing this such as to encourage experience or well geared ppl to join the graids to help out but I question the wisdom of using a system that has created a controversy and argument in the guild to achieve this.
After I was awarded these points a number of guild members had a heated and drawn out discussion about it in the guild channel. I thought some important points were raised but of more importance to me was the conduct of some guild members in the discussion. Some ppl were so outspoken that other ppl couldn’t voice their opinions and the guild channel became a very unpleasant place to be. I am of the opinion that some behaviors exhibited during this debate were inappropriate for that forum and destructive in nature to the health of the guild. I’ve seen a number of ppl behave in this manner since I returned to the guild and this is a topic I have long wanted to address. I think Malik knows where I’m going with this as we have touched on this topic before.

2. Conduct Befitting a Pro Guild
Demigod has a reputation for being a pro raiding guild for sure but it also has a growing reputation for having serious internal conflicts. These conflicts have put a number of ppl off joining our guild and seen a number of members leave.
Some of you will know that Silentscream, Sangerica and I all left at the same time because of repeated offensive behavior that we saw going on in the guild channel. In fact the offensive person even got promoted for his rude behavior at the time which sent all the wrong signals to me about the future direction of the guild and hence the reason why I left. Malik knows all about this.

The people I left with share one thing in a common and that’s the belief that Demigod is slowly destroying itself from within by continuing to tolerate the poor behavior of a small number of ppl who don’t know how to behave correctly in social environments. Now I made a promise to Malik not to leave the guild again before talking to him and the officers about a problem so I am raising it now.
Sorry to use you Bbagoss as an example here but I think it’s applicable considering the topic of this forum was DKP. Those of you that were there at the time you may recognize the content of the screen shots below. I have only shown a small cross section of this discussion because it went on for quite some time, involved a lot of ppl and I didn’t screen shot the whole thing. However, I think it illustrates the point I want to make.




As I mentioned before there was a lot more said but from the screen text you can see DKP caused a fair amount of stink that day but that’s not the point I’m trying to make.

These statement made by Bbagoss are heavily laden with emotion, are unreasonable, childish and designed to make ppl (Gurren) feel guilty pure and simple. Like other ppl before him that have done this, Bbagoss has given no consideration at all to the impact this kind of behavior has on his target or its effect on the guild. This is quite simply emotional manipulation and to me it represents unacceptable and abusive behavior. It also shows a complete lack of respect to the officers and the other guild members.

The pattern to recognize here is – not getting my way-creative conflict-introduce emotional leverage-leave guild to show how much you hurt me-come back to guild on my terms because other person feels they have to make amends.

I personally think the frequency of this pattern of behavior has increased. Ask yourself this question… every time this happens what message does it send out to other members of the guild? To me it says if I don’t get my way all I have to do is make a fuss. I see lesser versions of this type of behavior go on all too frequently in the guild and I think some sort form of discipline needs to be implemented to keep ppl in line.
You have probably all heard the saying “Birds of a feather stick together”, well if there are no negative consequences to this kind of disruptive behavior you are going to accumulate ppl in the guild that play this game and the ppl who don’t will leave. This kind of selfishness it will destroy the guild eventually.

As for Gurren and Pyro I think they stand out as shining examples of how people should behave in a pro guild and quite frankly they make the rest of us look good and they deserve our respect and support. Their behavior is what I would like to see encouraged in other members of the guild. The are not gime gime gime ppl and are there helping others. Personally I don’t care one bit about DKP points or gear, that’s not why I play the game. I’m getting tired now and losing the plot so I guess I’ll try to post this. And by the way, I’m not picking sides either I just want to see a happy guild and do what I can to support the officers and hopefully stimulate productive conversation around improving the guild so we can all have fun.

I just want to add that idk where the bonus for highest DPS, highest healing, tanking, staying , wiping, etc. came from because I've never seen a guild that uses DKP in that kind of way. But insulting, fighting, specially during guild raids is not the best time or way to complain. It is better if you say the system is unfair I agree with the fact that the system as it is now it is very subjective when the whole point of it to have a set number of rules that anyone could follow. The way it was before is only bonus for being present the whole raid (not going afk) and that was it then point for being at a boss kill. I don't want to personally aggravate gurren but it is just a simple suggestion.

i already cut that bonus rule...too many complaints, rite now if the raid goes smooth, every1 will get bonus

and i think every1 can agree when it goes smooth...no wipes, no bullshting so on so on